Your rights to children

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Re: Your rights to children

Postby snail » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:33 pm

You ARE allowed to have children, Bella, in the same way that everyone else is. What I don't think you should be allowed to do is create a child artificially with other people's genetic material, which is what sperm donation and surrogate motherhood are. And no, I'm not anti-IVF - I mean create artificially in the context of parentage. Parentage and knowing where you came from are very important to a child.

bellajennie wrote:And as for what has been said about same sex couples and children not knowing their biological parents, there are plenty more cases out there of children conceived in less than desirable circumstances who don't know them either.

Yes, of course there are, but the difference is it wasn't PLANNED that way when the child was conceived.

bellajennie wrote:I just don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to have children because there are plenty of other people who make worse jobs of their lives than me who have that privilege.

I know, and that's true, but it's not relevant. You could use that argument to justify practically anything.
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby Bel Bel » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:40 pm

Yes the difference is your making a choice to bring them into a circumstance that you know could be difficult for them.
A stupid irrepsonsible child getting pregnant isn't any better but is because they are irresponsible and naive that they get pregnant and their babies are often given up for adoption. Later in life their children may find them and get to understand the reasons they were given away and can find out about ther hereitage
Also the arguement you would make a better parent than alot of parents out there may well be true but it isn't the point
Social services should be doing there job better to remove these kids from those families, given more children a need to be adopted. If we keep continuing down the path of "creating babies" then no one will ever adopt these kids
We need far better education for young girls not to get preganant in the first place, those replica baby dolls that cry etc are a great idea. All kids at 10 should be made to have one every year as a reminder just what looking after a real baby means.
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby bellajennie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:52 pm

Clearly this discussion has gone beyond the original point. My apologies
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby dipsydoodlenoodle » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:59 pm

bellajennie wrote:Clearly this discussion has gone beyond the original point. My apologies


It was my post to begin with. I like these kind of posts because everyone gets a say and it does go off in all directions :).
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby RagDoll » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:18 pm

Yeh, I think it's good that these sort of posts evolve, as long as they don't go too off topic then it's fine and interesting to hear everyone's views :)
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby spacegirl » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:20 pm

i would like to add my tuppence worth - i've been trying to imagine whether a man would agree to have a child if it was physically possible for both sexes, and i just can't answer that question! the whole dynamic would be changed between men and women - who would be the child-bearer and who would be the provider? (in traditional roles - it's not necessarily the same these days) surely if that was possible it would just come down to either the less dominant in the relationship or whoever actually wanted to have the child, whether it was the man or the woman - as it being natural for women to have babies is irrelevant in this case. I know a lesbian couple who aren't planning to have a baby yet but have decided who will bear the child and who will provide the egg. Lol what a headwrecker dipsy!

as for snail's point about artificial insemination and denying the right to the biological parents - personally i don't agree. Whether the couple is same sex or heterosexual - I don't think not knowing the biological parent is relevant. As someone else said couples who go as far to have children in this way really want the child and will love it and care for it, that is in my opinion much more important than a biological link. Artificial insemination allows so many couples who are desperate for a child have that chance, and i don't see the difference in straight or gay couples using this method. Look how many kids are brought up by stepparents who loved them and cared for them much more than the biological parent who couldn't give a toss?

as for the children being brought up in an unnatural environment, society is definitely changing and same sex couples are more and more the norm and are accepted for the most part. Our generation is wholly accepting of same sex couples which means in theory our children will be brought up to accept same sex couples - and not to see it as "unnatural". Children are bullied for lots of reasons, risk of bullying shouldn't be a reason for a couple who are in love not to have children. If anything the children will grow up more open minded and tolerant of different attitudes and ways of life.

It may be a basic right to know where you come from, and the parents can choose to tell the child this - not necessarily the identity of the donor as this is confidential - but it is a recognised human right to have the right to a home and family life, and why should same sex couples be discriminated against? it may not be the natural way to conceive but neither is IVF for straight couples. I don't think the identity of the biological parent or surrogate mother argument is relevant at all, as the kids born to straight couples using the same methods don't know either so i don't really see where you're going with that?
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby dipsydoodlenoodle » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:30 pm

spacegirl wrote:surely if that was possible it would just come down to either the less dominant in the relationship or whoever actually wanted to have the child,


See that is what I thought, because in my personal current situation, I have a job, I get paid well, my bf doesn't - in our case if possible it would make sense for him to have a baby and me to keep earning (from a practical point of view). I'd certainly want to have it myself in real life but we are talking about "what if".

spacegirl wrote: for the children being brought up in an unnatural environment, society is definitely changing and same sex couples are more and more the norm and are accepted for the most part. Our generation is wholly accepting of same sex couples which means in theory our children will be brought up to accept same sex couples - and not to see it as "unnatural". Children are bullied for lots of reasons, risk of bullying shouldn't be a reason for a couple who are in love not to have children. If anything the children will grow up more open minded and tolerant of different attitudes and ways of life.


I suppose I should mention since I've thought about it...we have a relative who was happily married for years, she has 2 daughters. Their mam left their dad for another women, the two daughters went to live with their mam. The eldest daughter then moved out to live with her grandma.

ha ha has anyone saw Mock the Week when Frankie Boyle is on about gay parents? He says imagine having gay dad's. He was saying remember in school when you used to say "my dad will batter your dad" - "no my dad will batter your dad" he said having gay dads would mean you could say "my dad will sh ag your dad....and your dad will like it".

I just thought it was funny the first time I heard it
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby RagDoll » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:34 pm

I know this is going to sound very harsh and mean and a lot of people won't agree, but I'm of the opinion that sometimes people should just accept it if they can't have children (for whatever reasons, be it because they're in a same-sex couple, or a heterosexual couple who are finding it impossible to conceive). I just think people are so 'spoilt' these days (me included!) and think they should be able to have everything they want. Perhaps I have a warped view because I'm not overly fussed about having children though (not yet anyway).

I just wanted to reiterate with regards to Spacegirl's post (I know she wasn't trying to imply this... but didn't want anyone to think I'm being a bigot! lol) that I am not in anyway against same-sex couples, I have absolutely no issue with people being gay and would consider myself very open minded, I just don't necessarily agree that they should have children. If I were to have my own children, I would bring them up to (hopefully) be very open minded and tolerant of everyone.
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby snail » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:43 pm

spacegirl wrote:I don't think not knowing the biological parent is relevant.

I do. A child born as the result of sperm donation will be the sperm donor's son or daughter, like it or not. It may have his eyes, his mother's hair, his brother's feet, his inherited tendency to diabetes, his grandfather's autism, etc. The man who was the donor comes with generations behind him, hundreds of thousands of years of human history. The child will be permanently denied 50% of its heritage as a human being. It's not a question of whether this heritage is more or less important than the love and nurturing of the parents, but about whether it's fair to deliberately deny a child this. I don't think it is, and I would be livid and feel utterly betrayed if it had been done to me. The gay/straight thing makes no difference as far as I'm concerned - I think gay couples can make great parents like any one else; I am opposed to sperm donation or surrogate motherhood full stop. Sperm and eggs are the raw ingredients to make a person, they are not commodities to be anonymously exchanged!
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby RagDoll » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:51 pm

Have you ever thought about being a solicitor Snail?! You always put a really strong and well-worded argument together! Even when I don't agree, I can always see your point! :)
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby Bel Bel » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:12 pm

I thought donors no longer had the right to anonimity? Or was that just something they were thinking of?
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby spacegirl » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:16 pm

you're right belbel - they don't, i wasn't aware of that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4397249.stm
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby snail » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:14 pm

Did that law ever go through? I was under the impression it didn't in the end, because clinics said men wouldn't donate if it did.

I would support donor insemination if the child has the chance to have full contact with the genetic father from birth (or not, depending on how s/he feels about it).

RagDoll wrote:Have you ever thought about being a solicitor Snail?! You always put a really strong and well-worded argument together! Even when I don't agree, I can always see your point! :)

Thank you, Ragdoll - the cheque is in the post :wink:
Seriously though, it's mostly because I'm quite a bit older than most of the others on here, so I've had time to think about things more. For example, I understand a lot of Bella's arguments because, as a single, childless, 30-something woman, I've been through most of them myself (after all, it isn't just gay people who want children but don't get the chance). I've wondered about sperm donation, and even considered having a child with a male friend. So I already know what I think about these issues.
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby dipsydoodlenoodle » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:27 am

On another side to the argument. I've thought about egg donation. I thought it would be a fantastic gift to give someone who can't have kids alone; the only thing that has ever put me off and still does, is the fact do I want 20 mini dipsy's wondering around? I don't!
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Re: Your rights to children

Postby bellajennie » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:29 am

I think that perhaps Spacegirl said everything I wanted to say but much better!
I get so heated about all of this since I had a conversation with a Christian friend who told me I would go to hell for the way I was. I constantly assess my choices and my life, and the question of children is a big one. Perhaps as has been said I should just accept the fact that I'm not meant to have children? But anyone will appreciate that that is not an easy thing to do!

Perhaps this all comes down to the way I personally feel at the moment regarding certain circumstances. In my previous relationship I was with a woman for two and a half years who claimed to be very very gay. We broke up because of a large age gap. She wanted to have a child, and I was still in uni and our lives were too far apart. She is now days away from giving birth to a baby she conceived with a man whom she appears to be in a relationship with, despite the fact she told everyone she was gay.

Clearly then she wouldn't accept that she couldn't have children, and instead 'gave up' being gay. A brave thing to do perhaps? Or indeed this could cause more problems for the child if she is unable to make a happy home with the father. Or maybe I don't have a clue and she was straight all along.

[Hopefully tried to keep to the point even with that personal digression].
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